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Citizenship and Loyalty

Posted by inspir3d on August 31, 2006

“While the KTM is pro-immigration, he is of the view that granting citizenship is an altogether different matter from allowing people to come in to work. There were two letters that appeared in the Forum Page two days ago (29 Aug 2006) on this matter.

In the first letter, the writer questioned if we have granted citizenship to foreigners from countries for which it would be easy to have his/her citizenship reinstated. In the second letter, the writer is trying his luck in making a plug for the Garmen to relax the current no-dual-citizenship stance.” …more (KTM)


35 Responses to “Citizenship and Loyalty”

  1. harphoon said

    Citizenship and loyalty need not necessarily go hand in hand.

    Against the backdrop of a global economy where more and more people find themselves working abroad, the entire ideal of citizenship is fast eroding – I don’t say this as a reflection of the general sentiment, but rather from a very personal POV.

    In some ways this highlights the need to look further into what really constitutes loyalty and citizenry.

    I first started questioning the whole issue of loyalty some two years ago when a research colleague of mine who hailed from Brooklyn once told me, he would be going to back home.

    When I asked him where home was, he said, “where else, Israel.” It seemed strange to me, because in the period I had known him, he always referred to himself as an American.

    I had never really bothered to ask his religious orientation, there were plenty of clues of course, the menorah in his cubicle and when I once dropped a saucer in the cafeteria, he did say, “mazzatov”, but none of these registered beyond the ordinary, till he said,

    “Where else, Israel.”

    So one day I asked him straight off the hip, whether perhaps he was a trifle rash by deciding to settle in Israel. After all he had only visited the country four times and each visit rarely lasted beyond a month.

    Besides he was hardly the ultra orthodox Hasidic Jew who one can spot ten miles away with their furry wide brimmed hats. This was an ordinary Joe who wore jeans, sneakers, subscribed to the National Geographic and supported the Lakers – a real Americana, if ever there was one who ever walked this earth.

    When I pressed further by asking Yakov why, he didn’t feel the need to put America before Israel?

    He qualified himself by saying,

    “I am not saying, I not proud to be an American, only I am first and foremost a Jew.”

    I couldn’t figure it out, it was akin to a man being in love with two women at the same time, or was it?

    I pressed further,

    “Judaism is simply a religion and it had nothing to do with nationality.”

    Yakov replied,

    “No Judaism isn’t just a religion, it’s a way of life for me and my people, I may have grown up in America, but I went to a Jewish school where the head master was a Rabbi. I may come from Brooklyn, but we live in the Jewish quarter. I may eat fast food like most people, but I prefer Matzoh ball’s cooked the slow way Jewish style. I am Jew true and true – as for being an American, I am that too but that’s the big picture. I am not saying I will not fight for America only I ain’t going to die for some man I don’t care to know living in a white house or a $5 flag – sure he can find plenty of hill billy’s to go fight his war, only if I fight for America, it will be for my piece of Brooklyn, my Jewish school, that corner shop that sells imported olives from Israel, that Jewish girl that I had a crush on in the third grade – get it – the everyday stuff.”

    At that point, Darkness walked in and conversation broke off abruptly while everyone pretended to be busy – I still didn’t get it, what did he mean, the “everyday stuff?”

    It didn’t take me long to realize the connection between pride and loyalty. I realized what constitutes real citizenry isn’t about the big picture i.e nationalism. Yes, I am sure there will always be soldiers in every generation who will run off to battle in the name of King and country, to me at least, these are hardly resilient enough to withstand the first report of enemy gun fire.

    What really endures is the opposite of national pride, what my friend darkness referred too as “local or neighborhood” pride – it’s the small diorama of everyday existence in a community which we are so familiar with.

    The tea aunty who always makes it a point to ladle an extra scoop of sugar because she knows I have a sweet tooth. The girl next door who always manages a friendly smile because she just knows that will make my day or even the faded memory of a boy in a commando uniform who didn’t need to say one word, but the expression on his face conveyed the assurance, he would never leave me behind because he was simply my best mate – the small stuff: “neighborhood” pride where one person rubs against another and it just leaves enough residue to say, I am a part of you as much as you are a part of me –and we are all in one boat for better or for worse.

    I am a Asian, Catholic, Chinese, a Singaporean, ACS boy who hails for the South and I live in a street where old people still call me “Ah Tee” and expect me paint their rusty gates for $1 and a glass of Ribena, while they spend the evenings reminiscing abt the past – and I am proud of all of them.

    I realize like my Jewish friend, loyalty is concerned about identity without over- emphasizing one factor in particular as the source of all good.

    Above all it’s self selecting and has very little to do with the big picture the government dishes out – they may try to tell me what I should or should not be proud of – or what is or is not worth marching off to the battle for – but ultimately, it’s a very personal decision – one which I have to make myself.

    We never ever finished our conversation and till today, I don’t claim to understand it completely. Though whenever I come across a post which presents the question, I can’t help but mull over it – eventually Yakov moved to Tel Aviv and divided his time between New York and his new home and I returned back to Singapore with JDAM.

    Recently, I found myself turning to CNN and every time when the camera panned to a knot of Israeli soldiers. I found myself searching out for Yakov’s all too familiar lanky form – amongst the tired and weather beaten faces of those soldiers. I wondered perhaps he was one of them.

    Harphoon, thx KTM for writing this.

  2. Apologies, I still don’t get it.

    But I know there will be many who will question thus, if citizenship is not about loyalty, then:

    1 citizens need not serve NS (most equate NS for loyalty to the country),

    2 NS is not about loyalty, then why waste so much resources on it when those who serve may not be loyal?

    Most of you seem to suggest that either way, the country is better off not having National Service?

    However, I do agree on the neighbourhood pride concept of national identity. Yes, it is what makes us feel most attached to a place or country.

  3. perplexed said

    I also agree with harphoon that citizenship and loyalty are different, but, I don’t quite get the story.

    Harphoon and Darkness said that what matters most is the local neighbourhood rather than what the government paints as the big picture. Yet, his Jewish friend who had spent all his life in Brooklyn (albeit it is a Jewish quarter) left for Israel, a place he had only visited 4 times?
    Does that mean that the local neighbourhood has no effect on whether the person will leave or stay?

    And to extend harphoon’s and darkness’ thinking, since we decide for ourselves despite what the government paints as the big picture, the government should not be spending resources on national educaiton and singapore story. At the end of the day,
    the students are just going to make decisions based on their own personal reasons, not what the government tells them to.

    Is that the right interpretation of the story?

  4. True said

    I’ll always be an indian indian though i was born and raised here. My family came here because of economic survival. Unfortunately, living in an accidental state do come with some trade offs. In a place which pride itself to be the melting pot of asia, it has robbed me of a rich heritage and the kind of experiences that can only come from living in my homeland. Now i have been westernised against my will. My brethren in india will probably find me strange. Nevertheless, one of these days, if the gods permit, i still want to go home. No matter what, india is where my roots are. Come what may, it is still better than to be part of a project of some egotist who can’t accept the new reality.

  5. Hi all,
    actually what harpoon says is true.
    The BS about duty,honour,country is just BS to most.
    In times of conflict, it is thought that we fight for the buddies around you. The ones that you went through the mundane suffering day after day.
    ( I watched Shaving Ryan’s Privates- the lesson somewhere in Act 2 or 3)

  6. Bird of Prey said

    “Harphoon and Darkness said that what matters most is the local neighbourhood rather than what the government paints as the big picture. Yet, his Jewish friend who had spent all his life in Brooklyn (albeit it is a Jewish quarter) left for Israel, a place he had only visited 4 times?
    Does that mean that the local neighbourhood has no effect on whether the person will leave or stay?”

    Nope. I think what Yakov was trying to say he was part a community in a country, and the places, people and things in the community were intrinsically Jewish although in was in America.

    So in a sense Yakov was trying to say although he is a American, it was the everyday things that really mattered to him and perhaps made him shift to Israel.

    I think at least that is what the story is all abt – local pride.

    I agree with the doc, I was a commando myself and I can say this – we all fight for the people who we know not for some politician who are holed up in some log cabin in the swiss alps.

    Good one from the heart harpy

  7. whispers from the heart,

    The KTM’s response to your comments can be found here.

  8. luma said

    sometime back, lky revived the idea of ‘balek kampong’. i tot it was a great idea:).time we go back and contribute.

  9. Harphoon said


    “Does that mean that the local neighborhood has no effect on whether the person will leave or stay?”

    Perplex perhaps I need to clarify further.

    The term Darkness coined, “local” or “neighborhood” pride simply means the everyday things which really makes sense to all of us.

    The things, people and events we can all relate too. It’s the direct opposite of the big picture, which Darkness believed was simply too distant and far to have any real or lasting impact.

    Above all “local” pride is about authenticity, it’s the direct opposite of endless hype and spin.

    It’s about real experiences, not about the contrived “reality” of some well oiled marketing machine.

    Central to the idea of “local” pride is it is real and dependable. Real relationships, real friendships, real values, real people but above all it’s about the small picture.

    As for the second half of your question: I cant really see how our government is going to succeed.

    This generation will divide their time between the real and virtual world. For one they will be exposed to different interpretations of the truth and the narrative of the Singapore story will not be based on one authoritative version.

    With the advent of blogosphere, the truth will increasingly become more malleable and elastic.

    A better strategy would be to nurture students to think critically, so that they can be empowered to distinguish, differentiate, form and take pride with own version of the truth.

    We need to teach less and educate more, there is a gigantic difference.


    Yes I understand Yakov’s story is a trifle confusing (even for me) – if you are wondering why it remains an open ended story, it is precisely because there are so many ways to interpret his motivations – having said that, KTM has written an excellent attaché to his main post and I would highly recommend all of you to read on.

  10. ‘NS is simply a requirement of citizenship for male Singapore citizens’.

    I have read KTM’s piece and my takeaway is mainly the above … the others are quite just KT stuff. My apologies.

    NS is just another obligation for citizenship, then all citizens should serve NS, new or original. Imported or local.

    Otherwise, we are advocating “all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others” in my simple opinion. Of course, those like us woman folk and the medically unfit, have compelling reasons to be excused. Actually, I am in favour of women serving NS.

    National Service need not be just wearing green and taking up arms and digging trenches.

    Acutally, if we look at our country’s demographic development, there will be many opportunities for citizens to serve in the aged communities in future. I think it will be a good thing to initiate and to build a more compassionate society as we progress.

  11. flameoftheforest said


    As Rousseau said,

    “I think so, I am”

    I personally find it very disturbing when a bunch of intelligent people such as yourself look up to this character called darkness aka father of the game.

    I am not suggesting for one moment, he was not a charismatic figure Pls understand, I speak as someone who subscribed to every episode of the adventures of HG some 3 yrs ago. So do not tell me, I do not know him!

    Only I feel this emphasis on one man may not be so healthy after all.

    Another thing, I do not for one moment doubt what you say is infact true. Most netizens harbor a distrust of our gahmen and care even less what the MSM has to say.

    It is very obvious the gahmen has referred to the blogworld as “a free for all” and as for the MSM. They seemed quite bent on telling everybody blogs dont amount to very much.

    So the thing, I dont understand is simply this – why does the broterhood consider it worthwhile to engage those in blogoshpere, when they obviously dont.

    Please dont pick and choose what to answer as I am sure, I am not asking this for only myself but for the others – you ppl speak abt authenticity and real stuff, so dont disappoint us.

  12. Harphoon said


    “Only I feel this emphasis on one man may not be so healthy after all.”


    But I am not one of those who subscribed to all 739 episodes of the “adventures of huan guan.”

    Since you did, then it shouldn’t in the least surprise you, why darkness had a certain allure abt him.

    In many ways it goes only one step further to prove my point – authenticity sells. We will be coming up with an animated version, do be patient and yes, all of you ladies will have to pay for it.

    “why does the broterhood consider it worthwhile to engage those in blogoshpere, when they obviously dont”

    Your fears are unfounded, trust me.

    It is best if you think of us as just a band of very confused ppl with an identity crisis.

    We the powerless need to alleviate ourselves from our deep rooted sense of inferiority – do let us be. We have so little after all.

    btw, it wasn’t Rousseau who coined the phrase, but rather his countryman Rene Descartes.

    Though I can well understand the reason for the confusion.

  13. perplexed said

    Thanks for the clarifications by Harphoon.
    It seems that the brotherhood endorses many bloggers’ views that the government will not succeed in their singapore story and national education efforts.
    What puzzles me is that while the civil service (and the Cabinet) comprises the brightest people in the country, yet they failed to see this point? Either the blogosphere is wrong on this, or the Ministers and scholars are wrong? Or maybe the government just wants to do something for show even thought they know they won’t succeed? If so, isn’t that an unnecessary drain on our resources? In fact, by pushing this, they risk planting seeds of cynicism amongst the students?

  14. Flameoftheforest said

    Aha! So finally, we have it. An admission from the brotherhood, “yes, all of you ladies will have to pay for it.” – so you ppl r simply bunch of money grabbers. OK at least, I know now. As for darkness at least he came quite clean abt the whole issue of money, he simply said, I need to do this just for the money…..blah, blah, but you ppl keep confusing everyone here with your double speak. Do try to take this constructively for once.

    As for your sarcastic reply that was not necessary. Your needn’t have corrected me either, it was a typo. Pls dont think, I am a bimbo, I always knew decartes said that. Besides you have just demonstrated to everyone how good all of you are at skirting sensitive questions.

    Harphoon, I read your story. I must say I dont understand it 100%, but I know what was going on in Yakov’s head when he made the decision to migrate to Israel. He is saying in not so many words, citizenship is just a piece of paper. Loyalty is abt people, culture, history and a sense of belonging.

    So if we want to make sure FT’s eventually stay here. We just need to integrate them into our society and not allow them to exist in enclaves like the one Yakov was brought up in.

    Is that wat u r saying?

  15. scirocco said

    Need to ask one question that has been bothering me for a very long time. The brotherhood has always been accused as being elitist. What is the brotherhood’s view towards our governments overwhelming reliance on scholars? Is there a better solution.

  16. Atomic Monkey said

    The ancient chinese relied heavily on the ranks of the scholars and guess what the country went to the dogs.

    All over the world the public sector is trying it’s best to reinvent it’self – I am not referring to the BS change of simply aping the form rather than the content – I refer specifically to change brought abt by effects of global competition.

    We are competiting with the world – we need world class policies and initiatives – and this means a completely different sort of professional is required, a man with a world view – a man of all seasons or perhaps a rennaisance man – the sort who has perhaps lived and worked in europe, speaks abit of Russian and French, has impeccable manners – you get the picture.

    More important this man has cut his bones in the international business environment, where he has defended his ideas in an international forum – he has a few scars and he knows he must pick and choose his battles – he is an adept leader who always allows those a degree of autonomy bc he knows this is the only way for people to excel – above all, this man has no respect for the scholarship system.

    I think we can all agree if you put such a man in the ring with one of our home grown scholars – there wouldn’t even be a basis of competition.

    The governmemt simply needs to recruit more professionals from the private sector and more importantly provide competitive terms and conditions for them to take up meaningful positions in public sector – this way instead of just aping the form, perhaps there will really be real content.

  17. pre-raphaelite woman said

    still dont understand why there is a need for so many of them. Besides this man u r talking abt Mr A.Monkey, why should he come and work in sg? If he is so good, he would probably be a vice president, COO or CEO in some MNC….rite?

  18. pre-raphaelite woman said

    Harphoonboy, what u wrote. “We need to teach less and educate more, there is a gigantic difference.” sounds abit like “though the tortoise was severely speed challenged, he achieved his sales quota through a strict goal specific program.” Why cant u just write what u mean?

  19. Atomic Monkey said


    The brotherhood exist only for one objective, to make money. Every cosca in the brotherhood is driven by this goal. The game = business.

    I hope this clarifies our position.

  20. Harphoon said

    Perplex, FOTF, Scirocco, PRW

    Thanks for the clarifications by Harphoon. (You welcome)

    It seems that the brotherhood endorses many bloggers’ views that the government will not succeed in their singapore story and national education efforts.

    (We don’t endorse any bloggers view. We merely derive at the same results, but I believe our calculations remain very different.

    As for the national education effort, we offer no comment. Our commentary applies only to the Singapore story.)

    What puzzles me is that while the civil service (and the Cabinet) comprises the brightest people in the country, yet they failed to see this point?

    (I don’t doubt, there are pockets of brilliance in both the cabinet and CS as there are in private sector.

    However, let us not get too carried away with the idea the smartest people have all the answers to our problems. They don’t.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not advocating for one moment, we scrap the scholar system, only let us recognize many of it’s inherent weaknesses.

    For one they lack breadth, I believe AM highlighted some of the key points.

    Many scholars simply do not have the experiential knowledge which comes from having to adapt in a dynamic business environment, usually their first job is their last and only job.

    Compare this with someone in the private sector who constantly needs to reinvent and redefine themselves as they switch voluntarily or involuntarily (i.e retrenchment) to different firms, roles, missions, values and culture.

    These people bring a lot to the table in terms of experiential knowledge which can never be replicated in either the civil service or the government – namely their capacity to adapt, innovate and overcome in a global environment.

    Another limitation of the scholar program is contextual difference.

    While the private sector is essentially market driven and consumers vote with their wallets as to whether to buy into their goods and services. This means whatever form it eventually assumes is a function of market forces:

    The best way to run a firm is by recruiting the best possible staff and allowing them a degree of autonomy.

    The public sector and quasi government organizations do not operate under the same set of conditions.

    Instead it embodies a belief that the system is more important than the individual, that accountability is more important than intelligence or creativity, with the result the public sector (and not only in Singapore, but all over the world as well) will always remain an inept proving ground for the intelligentsia.

    If you are wondering why the US and most countries in the EU typically give out bond free scholarships, it is simply because they are realistic enough to realize what most top civil servants and politicians have already known for last 10 years,bureaucracies dumb down people, they are sclerotic and so many of these western governments prefer their best minds to roam free range in the private sector – where they will eventually be sharpened and honed to one day assume more meaningful roles in government – this is how effective people nurture talent. They think laterally!

    So there you go a summary on scholars and why I think we shouldn’t put too much emphasis on them.)

    Either the blogosphere is wrong on this, or the Ministers and scholars are wrong? Or maybe the government just wants to do something for show even thought they know they won’t succeed? If so, isn’t that an unnecessary drain on our resources?
    In fact, by pushing this, they risk planting seeds of cynicism amongst the students?

    (Yes, I am afraid so.)

  21. freelancergal said


    time and again, we see the brotherhood trying to pull the wool over ours eyes.

    I must say these boys are indeed sleek, but they lack content.

    Harpy r u married? I like the way you side stepped perplex second half of the question. Shame on you little naughty boy.

    Do make an effort to answer.

  22. pumpman said

    Harpoon gave a pretty good run down with what was wrong with the scholar system and why it doesn’t quite work these days. I would like to add further to the issue of

    “dumbing down.”

    I see two huge problems. First, the people making the decisions at those higher levels in govt and the CS usually do no have specific understanding of the technical issues they’re now making decisions about. Even the most competent senior civil servants can’t have detailed knowledge about all the systems under their purview. It’s too big!
    Second, moving decision-making up the bureaucratic chain unavoidably leads to a “dumbing down” of the lower positions in the hierarchy. That may be fine for a business like cold storage, which can easily slash wages and eliminate jobs whenever it likes. It’s not nearly so simple to do that in government, or in jobs that require considerable technical knowledge. When you dumb these jobs down, you end up paying people the same wage for lower-quality, less productive work. Not to mention the effect on moral.
    I personally would like to see more middle and senior managers from the private sector populating the govt and glc’s, then perhaps our cadre of scholars will be able to learn from tried and tested professionals – currently, the same old faces keeps getting rotated around and the old boy network guarantees the status quo.

  23. harphoon said


    Agreed – moving up the decision making process upstairs results in a general dumbing of human resources downstairs, but I am not for one moment advocating scholars should play a strategic role or even assume greater responsibilities in planning or policy initiatives.

    In fact my proposition is to downscale our reliance on scholars and instead bring in professionals who already exist in the PS to revitalize our CS and GLC’s.

    As intelligent as they may appear to be, let us all agree on one reality – our memory banks are relatively empty when we all came out from university! Remember?

    My POV is very specific, namely, it doesn’t make any sense to recruit the brightest minds, educate them in best universities only to put them into an inefficient system such as the civil service a GLC or even in Singapore. If anything that’s a recipe for disaster.

    I do not doubt this model works perfectly well for certain govt institutions which are insular in nature such as the RSAF, but I really cannot see how this model can continue to be relevant for ministries which haven’t even begun to wake up to the realization they simply need to get up to speed to network locally, regionally and globally. A

    s a small nation we need alliances, partnerships and to share information, if we are to remain relevant.

    It makes more sense if our brightest minds are allowed to roam free range and even work abroad to build up their core competence and broaden their scope.

    If history teaches us anything at all, it is never ever the ones who stayed back who made the difference.

    It was those who went forth and then returned who did.

  24. steamboy said

    Harpoon et al,

    I do recount vaguely having read a book once abt the collapse of the USSR – where the author Dobbs used two major incidences to describe the fatal flaw in the soviet juggernaut bureaucracy – he mentioned Chernobyl as well as the shooting down of KAL as evidence of the flawed decision-making process in the Soviet bureaucratic behemoth.

    Bureaucrats at the local level weren’t given much authority unlike their western counterparts who had wide discretionary powers. As a result, a crutch mentally creep into the system, where local bureaucrats simply stopped thinking and kept calling up the local commissars in Moscow. The best part abt the book was when the commissar asked the director of the nuclear plant in Chernobyl whether everything was OK. He replied,

    “Apart from blowing off the roof comrade, we have everything under control.”

    So the Moscow chap who wasn’t a trained nuclear specialist but a politician, polished off the last of his vodka and went back to sleep and didn’t bother to issue an evacuation order (after that, the Kremlin packed him off to a siberian gulag)

    My point is simply this: The measure of misplaced hope in the face of the obvious, I know the argument for globalization is strong – but equally strong is the argument, is this for real? There is a lot at stake, behemoth countries like China, US and EU can say “Oppps, we got it wrong, sorry” and they can move on, but Singapore doesn’t have the luxury of buffering a global miscalculation.

    If that is the case aren’t we (singaporeans) just barreling into another pipe dream. Pls Harpoon don’t tell it’s not possible, bc if I recall correctly, you were one of the greatest supporters of the boom – remember your paper extolling the virtues of the virtual economy and how you believed it will change the game forever – I have a copy of it right here and I am reading it now – taste like card board chicken a la diatribe!

    The last time the world miscalculated big time was during the helium era of the days when we were told this was the new order of wealth creation – of course now everyone is too embarrassed to revisit the subject and simply wishes for it to disappear and long bfr dat, we had the tulip mania where a single bud cost the equivalent of a town house in Amsterdam – my point is pertinent, precisely because it illustrates how we Singaporeans just buy into the ideas the West typically churns out or is it just me and why do I get the sinking feeling we are just jumping again on the band wagon without really first understanding what globalization actually means for us Singaporeans?

    If history tells us anything at all harpoon perhaps it’s simply this, the two most dangerous words ever uttered,

    “follow me.”

  25. soothsayerbro said

    Soothsayer: “Beware the ides of March.”

    Caesar: “He is a dreamer; let us leave him. Pass.”

  26. steamboy said


    I know wat the FC boys r planning to do with the animation series,

    “the adventure of the man called Huan Guan”

    It’s going to be a film noire rite? Like:

    Well it’s destined to fail, for one it doesnt have color and we all know why the color TV was invented for.

    What I cannot understand is why you chaps keep insisting on keeping all the goodies to yourself and not share it with the rest of the cosca’s in the brotherhood.

    If it was in color, we could enter an alliance with 4 or 5 more cosca’s to fund and produce it.

    I am appealing directly to darkness to ask him to personally intervene on this matter.

    Harpoon the story doesnt belong to yr cosca, it belongs to the whole of the brotherhood. Just remember that.

  27. harphoon said

    Let’s take this issue off line SB

  28. guardian of the book of ages said

    FC boys & the rest of the cosca’s,

    Understand this! I know every single cosca has descended on this site after hearing the animation project.

    Just bc they r not posting doesnt mean they r not here – it’s too late.

    Just remember one thing, this is not a space station or space travel machine we manufacturing here.

    So it aint going to be, you produce the nose, I the wing, him the mid section and we meet back here in one month to stick it all together.

    It aint going to be like that understand.

    The original love story darkness wrote had an allure, but only to women. 99.9% of the readers were women. Get the pic!

    A large part of the allure was driven by the personality of darkness – whenever these women checked their e-mail, receiving one of those episodes with the lousy spelling conjured up the illicit thrill of a bad boy confiding to them secretly.

    Everyone of those episodes ended with the acronym: DNTAS (go and guess what it means)

    Above all the reason for the allure was it’s underground quality – that was the thing that really made the illusion real. It wasnt like a book that u could classify – it was hard to pin down.

    Of course darkness too, he used to send chocolates and plastic roses to those women on their birthdays etc.

    Why am I telling u this? Bc I want u all to prosper. U understand?

    So pls let’s not behave like amauters, I know now that everyone suddenly thinks they are Fellini or Georgie Lucas, but pls leave it to the professionals.

    My cosca has been handling the animation in the game for yrs -we are light yrs ahead of anyone else in this area.

    Let us be reasonable brothers, let us sit down and try to find the lines which bind you to me – let us prosper

  29. Harphoon said

    Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears; I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them.

    None the less, I will really appreciate it, if this film matter is taken off line and treated as a matter of internal discussion. After all we have our own forum to deal with such matters, this is hardly the appropriate forum. As it has nothing to do with the thread started by KTM and even less to do with this site.

    SB, I was indeed one of the ardent believers of the boom along with a few billion other ppl on this planet. Spot on.

    However, if I am not mistaken you line of logic is based on finding derivations or correlations with the past to explain the future – or am I wrong?

    What are you trying to say, just bc the world took a dive the last time, it’s taking another dive now? Well if u want to pursue a line of logic along such lines, then u cannot avoid probability.

    How many times did the world get it wrong? Against betting on the right horse? Perhaps if you can answer that question yourself that should also serve as an answer.

    I do not doubt there are certainly kinks in the whole idea of globalization and it’s hardly a perfect ideal, it is not, but we cannot undo the internet or hammer our keyboards into ploughshares and go back to the cottage industry or are you suggesting for one moment we can?

    Neither are we big enough to determine what the geo-economic landscape of the world will be like in the forseeable future, we are simply a small country, a flotsam in the wide open sea and so we have to speak the lines that others have written for us and to play the part they so direct of us.

    This is politics.

  30. interspacing guild said

    The sadaherin, the 100 of the fittest brothers have grown arrogant under the protection of their leader darkness, perhaps it is time to pass a resolution to disband this ancient order of the knight templar. After all they have little or no use to us, since they still insist on maintaining their autonomy from the rest of the standard bearers in the brotherhood?

    You will share this opportunity with the rest of us harphoon or perish.

    3rd stage navigator

  31. interspacing guild said

    I know a few things abt darkness. For one he once took to the bottle. We all know he promised all of you, he would make good in his new teaching post in Beijing, but a leopard can never lose his spots. He will resist at first, a sip perhaps, then another and perhaps he would find the floating world between the legs of some woman. Trust me, it is always ends up this way, you dont know bc you choose to believe in lies.

    You people have too much regard for him. He is not god, he was just a man like you and me – though I grant you this – he was indeed the father of the game.

    You will comply harphoon.

  32. Harphoon said

    We will comply. We will find a way to accomodate all parties.

  33. Nacramanga said

    This is how I am going to accomodate all parties:

    (1) KOHO give me the coordinates of two ISG mineral class freighters.

    (2) Chronicler, Sar-harr-Batt, I want your immideate resignation. I shall be filling a case of corruption in LS.

    Darkness was my sworn enemy for 4 yrs. I fought against him, but I always respected him. He was first and foremost a gentlemen.

    You ppl need to learn the meaning of respect. Yes, I am sure there will be a petition against me in the senate after this but never mind, at least.

    I have no part in dishonouring the father of the game.

    Harphoon you r a weak leader!

  34. Guardian of the book of ages said


    The 3rd nav has issued a message capsule unconditional apology. Pls check you comsat.

    He merely wished to convey to the younger brothers the ill effects of alcohol abuse and dangers associated with leading a life of dissipation in Beijing.

    Naturally we all wish darkness the best in his new job. Who do you think was the hand who made it all possible? Allow me to confide in you. As you know darkness has been offered numerous official positions in Primus- once even by the emperor himself, but on every occasion, he has simply turned it down and why is this so disturbing and such a threat for to all of us? Allow me to share a capsule view of the book of ages known as “affairs of the royal crèche”. Then perhaps you will know why it is not to our interest, if he fails in his new job and returns.

    “………..In the calendar year of 30032 during the inauguration of the Emperor Pandishavan III 4 earth days after the Pillium Wars a state banquet was hosted by the four houses of the guild in honor of his Imperial Majesty. All the nobles paid tribute to his imperial highness, from the house of Vissian, a winged unicorn rumored to have cost 80,000 decantiumes!……a suspensor tribillium astrolabe to commemorate the calendar reign from the Altians……… was then, the man who all knew only as the father of the game and supreme hero of the Pillium Wars made his appearance. The man bowed solemnly and offered his signet ring, the first object ever produced in the trilogy hemisphere we all call the great game……………in this one act, he would renounce all his powers, titles, privileges, lands, credits and more…………his royal highness trembled as this object of great veneration was placed before him…….for he knew from that moment, all the powers of the known universe was in the palm of his hands………… a silence fell upon the crowd. Those who were ignorant to the intrigues of court life and politics rejoiced and openly praised his royal highness on his clever use of what they perceived to be parlance………. who was so taken in by this supreme gift he even forgot himself momentarily. While those of us who were adept at seeing plans within plans and skilled in avoiding the subtle instruments of death in court life, realized from that moment onwards, the father of the game had just signed his death warrant………. As he left, the man clothed only in the simple purple robes of the order of Sadaherin, scanned the chamber for the very last time and turned towards the great northern arch, where the words,

    “The ultimate science of the universe is to know power corrupts completely”

    is carved. It was difficult to fathom what was in his mind at that moment, for though it lasted for only a while…… many whose eyes were turned to this man instead of his royal highness……………. the senators, councilors and noblemen realized, he had to be killed……………. . you have no idea how much consternation this incident created in the Royal crèche and in Liberation Square. Subtlety and restraint were after all, the most deadly threats to all of us…………..” –

    pages 9903/9904 The Book of Ages, “Affairs of the Royal crèche” – 9809683487 Decima Primus time.

    Now u know my little toy soldier.

    May I also take this opportunity to inform you all mineral class vessels belonging to the ISG bear the imperial seal and article 17(1) of the Interstellar Act 39893 guarantees the bearer “safe and unencumbered passage.”

    As for harphoon, it is not fair to say he is a weak leader. It has always been our tradition to test out new leaders by posturing and jockeying. On the contrary, I see strenght in his character. So let us all enable and not disable him, only a fool will throw away such a man with such impeccable equilibrium.

    As for you remember this: good swords are not waved around or used to cut fire wood, they are kept in perfumed boxes and seethed always.

    let us use politics to settle our differences – let us all prosper.

  35. chronicler said

    I just want to wish you all good nite

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